人物访谈 | 安娜密·维克曼斯 | 总第79期“明日之建筑”专刊

人物访谈
INTERVIEW

安娜密·维克曼斯

Annemie Wyckmans

博士、教授，挪威科技大学建筑与艺术学院执行院长。从事可持续建筑与智慧城市专题研究。作为主管科研的执行院长，主要负责在挪威、欧盟和包括中国在内的国际合作，致力于拓展推广在建筑、城市规划及工业设计领域和智慧城市有关的研究；促进研究、教育与工业企业间的相互沟通，以保证未来专业人员（硕士、博士）的能力塑造与定位意识。安娜密教授个人主要从事智慧城市及社区的研究创新，旨在促进建筑和城市设计在智能、高效节能和气候适应型城市中的积极作用；并主持领导欧盟下的挪威节能建筑与智慧城市及社区工作组，以及挪威科技大学的相应工作网络。

 PhD, is Vice Dean of Research at NTNU Norwegian University of Science and Technology, Faculty of Architecture and Design. Wyckmans is professor in Sustainable Architecture / Smart Cities. Her main responsibilities are developing and promoting strategic research in architecture, urban planning and industrial design at Norwegian, EU and international Level (including China), in particular related to Smart Cities; and facilitating interaction between research, education and industry, to ensure capacity building of and awareness among future professionals (master and PhD). She is mainly working with research and innovation on smart cities and neighbourhoods, aiming to promote the role of architectural and urban design in smart, energy-efficient, climate-resilient cities. She leads the Norwegian EU-shadow group on Energy-Efficient Buildings and Smart Cities and Communities, and a corresponding network at NTNU.

1、您对中国日益扩大的城镇化建设怎么看？这是个蛮大的问题。

First, what is your opinion on the urbanization of China with this increasing speed and volume? It is really a big question.

是啊，我先简要谈一下。中国城镇化的速度与规模当然引发了在环境、经济和人口等方面的一系列挑战。但与此同时，城镇化也提供了非常多的机遇，特别是如果能多一点时间和空间想想如何使事情变得更好。你应比我更了解，现在城市规划和设计的方式似乎面临着一个很重大的改变，即一种对人的充满表现力的关注兴趣，把具体的公民置于中心。

Ha, just start with a small introduction. Well, um, I know, of course, that the speed and scale of urbanization in China is causing several challenges in terms of environmental, economic, demographic challenges. But at the same time, it also gives a lot of opportunities, especially, if there is a little bit of time and space to think how to make things better. That is, now there seems to a big change in the way of planning and design urban with a very expressive interests for human, put the citizen in the center, which you know that better than I.

在中国十三五规划纲要的新型城镇化规划内容中，可以看到很多对创建城市高品质生活，包括对提升环境质量的关注，对资源、能源的合理利用，尝试减少对空气质量，或对自然、对环境资源的（负面）影响，甚或施以积极的影响。这还是非常振奋人心的。如果我们知道中国过去城镇化的步伐何其迅速，如果现在有了一个趋于积极影响的巨大变化，而城镇化的速度又能保持此前的进展，应可能在很短时间内极大改善环境和人们的生活质量。当然，我们与中国合作的有趣之处是有机会成为这其中的一分子，借鉴学习欧洲的规划发展经验需要很多时间，这其中有优势可取之处，但劣势则是（在欧洲）检验一个东西看是否有成效可能需要很多年的时间。而在中国，则有机会可以更快地看到改变的成效。

In the thirteen five years plans, in the year of urbanization plan, now there seems to be a lot of interests for creating cities and urban districts with very high quality of life, but also a high quality of the environment, appropriate use of resources or energy, attempt not to have or maybe zero impacts or even a positive impact on air quality or on nature, on the environmental resources. So, that is very exciting. And also if we see how fast the pace of urbanization has been in the past in China, so if there now is a large change towards these positive impacts and a pace of urbanization keeps progressing it has been before, it can actually lead to a very big improvement in the environment and in the conditions of quality life of people in a very short of time. Of course, our interesting in working with China is the opportunity to be a part of this, also to learn from Europe planning progresses takes much time, there are advantages to that, but the disadvantages is that it may take many years before you can test something to see if something works. In China, there is opportunity to see the results much faster. 

2、由此和第一个问题相关的是（论坛）主题。此次中挪论坛聚焦于零能耗与可持续发展，能否就您的科研和实践经验谈谈和这次论坛主题的关系？

Then related to the first question in this scenario. This forum is focusing on the zero energy and sustainable development, so how do you related to this scenario you have been , according to your research and practice?

对于今年的中挪论坛，我们想选取比整个城市及地区尺度更小的技术实例。因为我们觉得在建筑及片区的技术处理方面有一些非常好的项目实例可供展示。而我们的确可以探究北欧国家和中国之间有效互鉴学习的潜力。因此，今年的论坛，我们重点关注的是建筑和建筑群的技术处理。在这些建筑项目中，我们能看到一些导向零排放技术发展的成果。我们参与了（这些项目的）整个施工建设和操作过程，包括全部建筑材料的更新，所有用于这些过程运行和材料制造所产生的各种能耗或排放，都通过生成额外的可再生能源而得到平衡。所以平衡的结果确实做到了零能耗，而我们还未在整个城市的尺度进行示范。我们想要展现的是，我们能够把为建筑物和建筑群的技术提升到住区尺度。我们知道，很多公司、城市和科研机构都在规划设计零排放城市。但是迄今为止，你知道有很多的思考、规划和活动组织，但我们想要呈现的是结果。因此这就是为什么我们眼下正在打造对于（零排放）社区的技术。这样我们可以在那些研究材料、全生命周期分析、工业设计、建筑设计的专家和区域设计工程师及社会科学方面的专家之中展示一种现实的、综合的方法途径。我们希望在下次中挪论坛时我们可以把相应规模尺度提升到区域乃至城市层面。

Well, for this year’s forum, we want to take a slightly a smaller skill than in entire cities and regions. Exactly because we think there are some very good projects examples at the building and district skill that could be shown. And we really can explore the potential learning effective synergy between Nordic countries and China. So, this year’s forum, we focus on building skill and building clusters districts skill. There, we know that there are results where these projects actually have led to zero emission development. So we are both the entire construction process and operation, renovation all the materials included, any kind of energy or emissions that have been used to create these processes and these materials have been balanced by generating additional renewal energy. So, that actually the balances are zero, and we cannot yet demonstrate that for the entire city. We can for building and building cluster skill up to neighborhoods that is we wanted to show. We know that a lot of companies and a lot of cities, and research institutes, of course, are planning towards design zero emission cities. But as to yet, you know, there is a lot of thinking, planning and organizing, but we want to show the results. So that is why we are building the neighborhood skill now. That is also we can show realistic integrated approach between experts working with materials, with lifecycle analysis, with design, building design and district design engineer, social sciences. We hope that next forum we can scale up the district and cities level.

3、您谈到关于可持续发展的小规模建筑技术实验。不过事实上，可持续发展不仅仅是一个建筑层面的概念，也是一个社会层面的概念。因此，这意味着不仅设计师和研究人员是其中的一部分，而且它需要社会所有不同部门的共同努力去实现这一目标。您知道专家通常只在他们熟悉的领域中工作。您对中国和挪威的不同语境有何看法？

You mentioned this small skill experiment of sustainable development in the building skills. But in fact, this sustainable development idea is not only architectural concept but it is also a social concept. So it means not only designers and researchers are part of it, but it needs different sectors of all the society to work jointly to achieve this goal. You know usually the experts work in their fields. How will you comment in Norwegian context and in Chinese context?

让我们先从挪威科技大学的非常小的技术手段开始。有时我们开玩笑说，实际上我们需要挪威科技大学所有学科的所有专业知识，以创建可持续的智慧城市。挪威科技大学有除法律和宗教之外的所有各类学科和各种专家。事实上我们不可能做可持续城市而没有吸引人的好处。所以我们一直在努力尝试如何把所有牵涉领域更好地结合到一起，如何达成合作，像如何构建不同专家之间交流的平台，以及看我们是否可能把类似的东西拓展延伸到城市和市政层面。

let’s start from very small skills at NTNU. Sometimes we joked that actually we would require all of the expertise of all the disciplines of the NTNU in order to be created smart sustainable cities. NTNU have all experts and all kinds of disciplines except for law and religion. So actually we cannot make sustainable cities without the sweeties. So we’ve been testing how to get of all these disciplines who are very much involved in their fields, how to create cooperation, like how is the platform between all of these experts, and to see if we can do similar with towards the cities and municipalities.

我大约十年前开始做的这项工作。最初我们与市政府有一些项目，我们尝试在挪威创建这类住区，但是我们当时没有意识到其中的社会责任因素等等。经过多年的规划与设计，项目仍未真正实施。当然，我们由此明白了真正创建项目以及操作资质的实践落实，需要的不仅仅是研究以及城市官方的支持，还需要一些工业配套，以及涉身其中的住民的参与。因此，仅仅确保所有学科专业在一起工作仍然是不够的，你还需要社会的不同组成部门的参与。所以，我们意识到我们可以有好的创意和想法，但如果我们不能获得公众和工业企业的支持，则不能在实践中获得改进。因此，我们开始致力于把更多的内容整合进我们的项目，或者不将其整合到项目中，而是与他们一起创建项目。

I started to working with that about 10 years ago. And at first we had projects with the municipality where we try to create the neighborhoods in Norway which we have no admission that would be socially responsible, etc. After many years of urban planning in design, the projects still have not been realized. And we see, of course, that in order to really create the projects that can be improvement and operation license actually be put into practice, it is not enough to have the research and the cities, you also need the industry components, and you need the citizens involved. So then, it is not enough to just make sure that all disciplines are working together, but you also need different sectors of society. So then when we saw this we can create good ideas, but we cannot make improvement in practice if we don’t get citizen and industry. So we started to work to integrate more into our projects as well or not to integrate them into our projects but to create projects together with them.

在过去八年中，我们与工业界和公共服务部门的合作伙伴有了一个零排放建筑研究中心。现在我们将走向一个智慧城市中的零排放社区研究中心，拥有更多的技术手段，和挪威一个郡的七个城市、三十多家企业作为合作伙伴一起工作。这个机构由挪威科技大学和斯堪的纳维亚另一家大型科研机构挪威科技工业研究院（SINTEF）共同合作领导。因此，我们正在尝试如何在这一背景下与工业企业和这些城市一起创生新知识、新研究和新的项目。

For the past 8 years, now we have had a research center on the zero emission buildings with industry partners and public partners. Now we will go towards a research center on zero emission neighborhoods in smart cities, so larger skills, together with 7 cities partners (from the whole country 7 different cities) and more than 30 industry partners. It’s led by NTNU and cooperation with SINTEF, a large center research organization institute in Scandinavia. So we are testing how to create new knowledge, new research and new projects together with industries and with cities in this context.

我们一直关注欧洲的类似发展，事实上我们非常多地介入到欧洲各科研组织机构的互鉴学习中，了解我们正在自己国家所做、所检验，以及所示范的东西是否也可以用于其他国家。这对于我们也是一个学习的过程。如果可以将其转换到其他城市和其他项目中，很重要的一点是规划并改进它以能使之完全不同。这也是我们与中国合作的挑战性所在。我们有很多共同的利益兴趣点。我们正一起追问。而当我们研发解决方案时，我们能否真正从彼此的解决方案中互鉴学习？我们能否传递这样的经验？如果我们能检验什么，那就是我们是否可能将技能累积使之适用于其他地方，抑或这永远只是适用于本地参与者的地方性项目？

We see across Europe similar development happening and actually we are very much involved in European organization institutes to learn each other and to see if what we are doing in our country, what we are testing there, demonstrating there if that can also be used in other countries. So we can learn. One thing is to plan something and to improve it that something can be completely different to see if you can actually transfer it to other projects and other cities. There, it is our challenging cooperation with China as well. We have a lot of common interests. We are asking a lot of some questions. But when we are developing solutions, can we actually learn from each others’ solutions and can we transfer them? And if we can test something, can we skill that and add up to other areas or does it really always to be a local projects with local actors？

4、实际上您已经对下一个问做了一些解答。能否谈下您对欧盟中国城市合作平台的期望吗？

Yeah, actually you have partly answered my next question because you have urban EU-China platform. And what is your expectation to this platform?

好的。我们目前正准备签署一系列合同，希望今年12月可以正式启动项目。如我前面所提到的，这是不同专业、不同部门的合作，涉及政策制定、资金支持、项目示范与城市间的合作，以及与工业企业间的合作，为不同利益相关方和合作伙伴创建彼此会面和交流经验相互学习的平台。因此，将所有这些集中在一个项目中已经是很大的挑战。而这又将是欧盟和中国之间新增加的平台的合作。我们所寻求的不是欧盟和中国的不同点，而是它们之间的共同点。我们希望创建以人为本的美好城市——良好的生活品质，良好的环境，以及对能源和气候做到最低程度的影响，甚至零影响。

Well, we are currently preparing for the signing of the contracts. We hope to formerly start this project by December this year. That is exactly the summary of everything that I said now. It is the cooperation with different sectors, with different disciplines. It involves policy, finance, demonstration projects, cooperation between with cities, cooperation between industries and creating meeting places for different stakeholders and partners to meet and to exchange their experiences to learn from each other. So, that would already be challenges to put all of these together in one project. And this would be additional platform cooperation between EU and China. There exactly what we started from was not the differences between EU and China, but what we have in common. We want to create good cities where people are in the center and with a good quality of life and good environment and low impact or possible no impact on energy resource and climate.

我们知道有些解决方案和技术，以及某些资金方面的选择等等不能嫁接转移。但很多方法和处理过程，以及制定决策时在各方面涉及的因素，我们事实上是可以互相学习的，例如看看在做决策时应该涉及哪些类型的圈子。有时我们学习是因为我们非常相似，有时我们学习则是因为别人与我们非常不同。当他们问到一些我们觉得不过是显而易见的问题，继而我们意识到事情并非是那么显而易见。当你用十年时间以同样的方式完成了某一过程，然后你在中国遇到同行，他们问：“你们为什么这样做事？”而你只是回答说：“嗯，你知道，因为是规范的原因像这些事情要用十年。”然后你开始思考可能会有一种更好的方式，怎么别人是这样做。这就是这个平台的作用。当然，我们知道目前还存在一些障碍。欧盟国家和中国有许多城市愿意开展合作。有很多企业、公司、组织希望进行合作。但是有时候我们很难互相找到彼此，因为语言、文化的关系，也可能是融资制度的不同，规则的不同。作为一个公司或一个人试图弄清楚这些太困难了。这个平台的作用实际上就是降低这些影响合作的门槛，将所有的经验结合在一起，并让人们看到，如果有人想进行合作，他们可以更容易地在另一方找到匹配的合作方；并且确实展现欧盟国家与中国之间、各个城市与各个企业之间以及在研究方面的合作优势。所以，这就是这个项目所关系的内容。

So we know that there are certain solutions and technologies, also certain funding options etc. that cannot be transferred. But we also see that a lot of the methods and the processes, and a type of policies that are being developed on each side, actually, there we can learn from each other, also for example see the type of circles that should be involved when making a decision. Sometimes we learn because we are very similar, sometimes we learn because the other is so different from us. They are asking questions about things that we think you know just are obvious, then we think the things is not obvious. When you have been in doing the certain process in same way for the ten years, and you meet colleagues in China and they asked, “Why are you doing in this ways?” And you only answer, “Well, you know because it is the regulations like these things for ten years.” Then you start to think might there be a better way, how is someone else doing this. That is intention of the platform. Of course we know that currently there are some barriers. There are many cities in EU and China that would like to cooperate. There are industries, companies, organizations that would like to cooperate. But sometimes it is difficult to find each other, because of languages, culture, but also maybe the financing systems are different, the regulations are different. It is just too difficult to as one company or one person to try to figure this out. The intention of the platform is actually to low these barriers to cooperation, so to together all the experiences and make them available for people to see that if someone wants to cooperate, they can find it easier match on the other side, and also to actually show what are the advantages of cooperating between EU and China, between cities and industries and in research. So, that is what the project is about.

5、这个平台如何组织？

How will it be organized of the platform?

我们有来自欧洲方面的8个合作伙伴和来自中国的5个合作伙伴。我们有来自中国的一些政府代表机构和一些国家级的大学科研中心，以及处理与工业界合作的中国欧盟商会。因此，我们尝试在中国同时与政策制定者、研究机构和工业界合作。对于欧洲方面的合作伙伴，我们基本上是欧洲智慧城市主要工作网络组织的领导者。所有这些在研究领域、政策制定，以及企业界的龙头组织都是我们提供顾问咨询的组成部分。我们知道，有这些机构作为我们的咨询工作组成员，我们可以很容易延伸到他们的所有相关网络，我们可以把触角抵达上千家机构、组织或者公司。不过，这样也很容易会有非常多的会谈讨论。所以，我们制定了非常具体的目标。我们将创建一些示范项目，我们将在城市间创建具体的合作。在这个合作网络中，我们可以知道哪些是已经和中国建立合作的，哪些是试图和中国建立合作的，以及帮助促成他们会面。我们的中方合作伙伴在中国所做的工作和我们类似，这样可以很容易把不同的合作伙伴联系在一起。

Well, we have 8 partners from Europe and 5 from China. We have some government agencies from China and some university centers with national responsibility and EU-China chamber of commerce which deals with industry cooperation. So, we try to have both policy, research and industry on the Chinese side. For the European partners, we have basically been the leaders of the main European network organizations for urban Europe smart cities. All of those, the leading organizations are part of our consultation, the leading organizations both in research, in policy, and in industry cooperation. So, we know that by having all these in our consultation, we can reach all of their networks very easily, we can reach thousands of institutions or organizations, companies. But we know that also would be easily become a lots of talking and meeting. So, we also make very specific goals. We will set up some demonstration projects, we will create specific cooperation between cities. Within this network, we will identify who is already working with China, and would like to work with China, and specifically help them to meet. Our Chinese partners are doing the same on the Chinese side, so that would be more easily to match the different partners together.

我们实际上正在和中方及欧洲方面的合作伙伴共同努力。我们正直接与不同的基金资助机构合作，以便可以对等匹配。中方和欧洲方面都有各自的资金支持。我们努力把这些中的一部分对口，以便我们可能创建一些联合项目基金，还有一些联合的召集活动，这样我们能够使中国和欧洲的城市、研究机构和工业企业联合起来，一起申请一个由中方和欧洲方面共同支持资助的项目。由此我们可以真正一起做出一些成绩来。

We are actually working through the Chinese partners and European’s side. We are working directly with different funding agencies, so that we can also match. The funding is available on the European and Chinese side. We can try to make some of it match, so that maybe we can create some joint project funding, also some joint to the calls, that we are able to make Chinese, European cities, researches and industries to join forces and together to apply for a project that would be supported and financed by Chinese and European sides. So then we can really create the results together.

6、您提到不同国籍的成员在为可持续发展的目标工作。所以目前您这个平台，事实上至少拥有两组不同文化背景的成员。您是否对这些成员的主要差异有一个观察？主要的差异和挑战在哪？

You mentioned there are different nationalities to achieve sustainable development goals. So now you have this platform in fact with two groups of people with different background cultures. Have you had some knowledge or your observation of the main differences of these two kinds of people? Where are the differences and challenges?

幸运的是，我们已经就很多国家级项目同中国合作。我们也有好几个和欧洲方面的合作项目。现在我们则尝试把这些链接在一起。其中的挑战是，尽管我们意思相同但我们使用不同的语言，我们所表达的在对方可能意味着是别的东西。实际上，我们只是还没有意识到我们目标意图相同。而这的确需要耐心，当然，要使他们愿意彼此倾听。当有人说了些什么，不应只是回应说“哦，不，但你知道这是别的意思”，而是要问“你这是什么意思，我理解的对吗？”要对于别人在做的事情怀有机敏的兴趣。我想我们很长一段时间以来一直致力于这项建议，我们也在非常深入地尝试练习。永远不要只是要求别人提交成果，而要总是能提问和讨论，看看我们是否彼此理解。另一个挑战是，我们做事方式的不同，例如，规划或做决策的方式。一些人是首先有很多讨论，然后做出决定，这是为整体影响考虑而设置的方式。另一些人则是考虑我们先检验尝试一些方式。看看进展如何。然后我们可能改变调整，更灵活随机。我们明白有很多挑战。不过这不仅仅是在欧盟和中国之间，也是在不同的参与机构和组织之间。当你和做研究、制定政策以及工业企业的人们合作时，大家总是有不同的步调和不同的决策方式。

Well, luckily we’ve had already quite a lot of national projects together with China. And we’ve also had several like European cooperation projects. And now we try to link these together. Some of the challenges are that just we mean the same but we use different words and we use the words to the other party meaning something else. We actually are intending the same, but we just don’t see that. And it really requires patience, of course and willing them to listen, to actually when someone said something, not react like oh no but you know it is something else, but to ask what do you meaning with this, do I understand correctly? And really with the genius interests in what the other people are doing. We think that during we have been working on that proposal for a long time, very intensively also, there we try to practice this. Never just get someone to submit something, but always ask and discuss to see if we understand each other. Another challenge is that we also have the different ways of, for example, the planning or making decisions. So some people have first a lot of discussion and make decision that is set for the whole influence. Others think we will test something, we will see how it will go, and then we maybe change, be flexible. And we see that there are a lot of challenges. But it is not just between EU and China, but it also between different agencies, organizations involved. When you work with people from research, policy and industry, they have a different pace and a different way of decision making.

我们可以看到，如果只是由一个部门运作或在一个地区的发展，其解决方案成果往往不可能被转换并被其他人分享。可以肯定，我们需要的就是这一非常复杂的合作伙伴关系，它必须是复杂的，因为不如此则不能反映出社会的复杂。而我们殷切希望这是他们这些新手将持续三年的工作平台，目前项目的基金也是三年。我们一起共同努力，看看如何能创造出一些快速的解决方案，我们知道，我们将着手做的很多事实际上可能需要十年甚或二十年才能真正看到差异变化。但我们也要看看我们如何在这三年内开始做出一些不同的成绩，让人们看到这会是一个好的发展变化，我们想加入，我们想成为其中一分子。这是今年十二月启动的这个平台的主要努力方向，让每个人都加入，表明这是中国和欧洲之间的平等合作。作为其中之一的工业企业、政策制定部门和研究组织机构，这都是一个非常重要的地方。

There we can see that if it is developed only by one sector, or only by one continent, the solutions will not to be able to be transferred to the other ones. We need, yes, it is very complex partnership, but it needs to be complex, because otherwise we cannot reflect the complex of the society. But we do hope them this is the platform that for starters will last 3 years, current projects funding is for 3 years. We have been working together on seeing how we can create some fast solutions, so we know that many of the things we will start actually take 10 years or 20 years to really see the difference. But we also look at how can we start to make difference within those 3 years, so that people see that it is a good development, we want to be a part of it, and we want to join it. That is going to the main effort for starting this platform in December to get everyone on board and to show that this is equal cooperation between China and Europe. That is a very important place to be part of both as industry, as policy, as research organization.

7、可否谈谈你们在欧洲完成的一些零排放建筑设计或建筑项目？以及您在中国见过一些类似智慧城市或零排放建筑的项目？可否比较一下国内外这类建成项目的优点和缺憾？

I also wonder if you have some zero emission building design or building projects finished in Europe. And have you seen some similar projects or smart city or zero emission building in China? Compare the two realized types of projects, what are strength and weakness?

真正的零排放建筑还是比较罕见的。很多项目都关注零能耗，但是很关键的，却没有反映出所用能源来自哪里。因为可能采用的仍是化石燃料。很长一段时间以来，在欧洲曾非常多的在关注零能耗（净零节能）问题，值得庆幸的是，现在开始转而更多趋向（温室气体）零排放问题。这相当不容易。（在挪威）我们花了很多年时间致力于建筑设计公司、承包商、建筑供应商和科研机构之间的合作，以找到解决方案，不仅仅只是技术，而是通过设计如何把所有一切整合在一起，以及如何组织其运行过程。所以你确实问到了关键之处。

Well, to really find zero emission project is quite rare. A lot of projects focus on zero energy, but then it does not necessarily reflect where the energy comes from. The energy might be used in fossils fuel. For a long time, in Europe there have been a lot of focused on zero energy, now it is starting to change more towards zero emissions luckily. But it is quite difficult. We’ve seen we have some examples in Norway on the building skills. We see that it directly took a lot of years of cooperation between the architecture firms, the contractors, the building suppliers and research in order to create those solutions, not just the technologies but also the design who have to building on how to put everything together and how to organize the process, so you actually get there. 

在这里我们看到，第一阶段，是从研究方面得到推动，以达到零排放。第二阶段是开始去改变，第三阶段是工业企业说可以，这样我们看到问题被一层层剥开以及我们需要做什么。现在我们通过一个长期的运营过程，可以与市场相适应，所以不只是这些示范项目成本不高以及花了很多时间，而是我们懂得如何可以在正常的市场中创建这类建筑。所以他们不仅是采纳了这个过程，而且他们必须能自己生成项目。这即本来意图所在。

There we saw that in the first time it was a lot of push from research side to get zero emission. The second time that already started to change, the third time the industries said ok, you know we‘ve seen what you are skinned what we need to be done. Now we make a long process that also fix within the market, so not demonstration projects that cost small and a lot of time, but we see how we can create this kind of buildings within the normal market. So they have just not just adopted the process, but they have to make their own the project. That is of course intention. 

我们在中国有一些固定交流项目，所以我们看到过一些不错的实例，诸如达成部分目标的，如某个建筑项目关注零能耗运行，又或使用自然材料或是非常好地与周遭自然环境结合。我还没有看到零排放建筑或零排放住区的实例。我希望明天也许能看到。不过我们参加了一些会议，有关目前正在创建的一些城市和住区。它们都有前景非常可观的起点，有了这样的起点恰恰需要的是要能达成目标。所以它们是否不是开始于“我们先做实体规划，接着我们做专业转换然后我们做节能”，而是开始于“我们首先需要整合设计师去规划”。所以我们从一开始就需要所有专家。它们同时也要有当地研发中心做节能的专家参与其中。它们有规划、政策、民众和官员。所有各种不同的决定，使所有专家从一开始就是工作组的一部分，他们会有非常好的机会去研发好的集成解决方案，并可能将之细化成为零排放住区。它们还使用不同的指标来衡量我们将要做的。如何衡量，生活品质怎样？这可能很难被度量。我们如何确保这被包括在内？因此，我们对这些项目有非常高的期望，正是依托这个平台我们将能够在明年跟随他们看看项目将如何进展。确保其他人可以从此中借鉴学习。

We fixed several projects in China so we’ve seen some good, like partial results, or a building project focuses on zero energy on operation or on using natural materials or very well integrated with the nature around it. I have not yet seen the zero emission building or districts. I hope maybe to see that tomorrow. But we have some meetings with cities and districts that are currently been created. They have very promising starting point. They have exactly the starting point that would be needed in order to get there. So they start with or not with or first we do physical planning and we do transfer and we do energy, but they start with we need to integrate the designers planning. So we need these experts on board from the start. They also have the local DRC experts in terms of energy you know those are on board. They have the planning, the policy, the people and the politicians. All the different decisions that make the experts are part of the groups from the start and they will have a very good chance to develop good integrated solutions that can be detailed to become a zero emission district. And they also work with different indictors for what we are going to measure. How can it be measured, how about the quality of life? It might be difficult to be measured. How we are going to make sure this is included? So we have very high hope for these projects that is exactly with this platform we will be enable to follow them during next year to see how it will develop. Make sure others can learn from this.

译者、校对人简介

Translator and Proofreader

许东明，挪威建筑师协会（NAL）注册建筑师，挪威科技大学（NTNU）建筑与艺术学院建筑遗产保护方向博士在读

侯小青，挪威科技大学（NTNU）英语及第二语言习得专业硕士。西安外国语大学前教师

XU Dongming, MNAL Architect, PhD candidate at Faculty of Architecture and Design, NTNU

HOU Xiaoqing, Master in English and Second Language Acquisition, NTNU

此访谈刊登于《住区》杂志总第79期《明日之建筑》专刊

“2016中挪建筑论坛——零能耗·可持续建筑”